Comments on: Four Years Post-Katrina http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/ Life in the Flood Zone Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:54:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Editor B http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-394231 Editor B Tue, 08 Sep 2009 13:29:34 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-394231 The question of whether the storm bears *any* blame for the flooding misses the point, I think. It's of course true that Katrina's surge caused the high water, without which the flooding probably wouldn't have happened, at least not on that particular day. But the fact remains that the design flaw would probably have led to the failure of those floodwalls on the outfall canals eventually. It was, as I understand it, an catastrophe waiting to happen. I'm all for Radical Wetlands Restoration. However I also have to note that a friend of mine who is a civil engineer thinks the protective power of coastal restoration may be overrated. The question of whether the storm bears *any* blame for the flooding misses the point, I think. It’s of course true that Katrina’s surge caused the high water, without which the flooding probably wouldn’t have happened, at least not on that particular day. But the fact remains that the design flaw would probably have led to the failure of those floodwalls on the outfall canals eventually. It was, as I understand it, an catastrophe waiting to happen.

I’m all for Radical Wetlands Restoration. However I also have to note that a friend of mine who is a civil engineer thinks the protective power of coastal restoration may be overrated.

]]> By: jim http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-393012 jim Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:53:22 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-393012 two thoughts about garvey's perspective the nature-take-its-course perspective is intellectually consistent. however i think it fails to appreciate how these decisions were made. back in the day, the choice wasn't keep the mississippi where it is or let it run down the atchafalaya. the choice was prevent minor, periodic flooding or leave things alone. not surprisingly, they chose the former. but at this point, it's clear our society has completely rejected the nature-take-its-course perspective, as has much of the civilized world. given that then, what we can't have is such management performed in a half-baked manner. two thoughts about garvey’s perspective

the nature-take-its-course perspective is intellectually consistent. however i think it fails to appreciate how these decisions were made. back in the day, the choice wasn’t keep the mississippi where it is or let it run down the atchafalaya. the choice was prevent minor, periodic flooding or leave things alone. not surprisingly, they chose the former.

but at this point, it’s clear our society has completely rejected the nature-take-its-course perspective, as has much of the civilized world. given that then, what we can’t have is such management performed in a half-baked manner.

]]> By: Garvey http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-392943 Garvey Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:03:11 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-392943 [Didn't see that comin', didja B? Garvey the Radical Wetlands Restorationist?] [Didn't see that comin', didja B? Garvey the Radical Wetlands Restorationist?]

]]> By: Garvey http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-392942 Garvey Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:01:21 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-392942 Thanks for the quick-and-dirty explanations. Much appreciated. But the storm itself bears 0% of the blame? "If rivers are wont to wander, should every river city be at risk of having its geography radically changed?" Lots of people would say yes. Then nature decides the winners and losers, instead the Corps. And the long term implications of the Corp deciding is that everyone becomes losers in the end. The loss of the wetlands/delta is a prime example. Everglades, too. Thanks for the quick-and-dirty explanations. Much appreciated. But the storm itself bears 0% of the blame?

“If rivers are wont to wander, should every river city be at risk of having its geography radically changed?”

Lots of people would say yes. Then nature decides the winners and losers, instead the Corps. And the long term implications of the Corp deciding is that everyone becomes losers in the end. The loss of the wetlands/delta is a prime example. Everglades, too.

]]> By: jim http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-392886 jim Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:12:21 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-392886 b is correct about the corps' knowing the levees were screwed way back in the 80's. how many cities in the us are on rivers? if rivers are wont to wander, should every river city be at risk of having its geography radically changed? also, new orleans' being "below sea level" is a bit of a misnomer. most of the city is above sea level, though a minority of it is below sea level. all port cities are near sea level. some of the most devastating katrina damage (ie, nola east and the lower ninth ward) was caused by the storm surge being rammed up the mississippi river gulf outlet (mr. go), a canal created during wwii to protect shipping from german subs. b is correct about the corps’ knowing the levees were screwed way back in the 80’s.

how many cities in the us are on rivers? if rivers are wont to wander, should every river city be at risk of having its geography radically changed?

also, new orleans’ being “below sea level” is a bit of a misnomer. most of the city is above sea level, though a minority of it is below sea level. all port cities are near sea level.

some of the most devastating katrina damage (ie, nola east and the lower ninth ward) was caused by the storm surge being rammed up the mississippi river gulf outlet (mr. go), a canal created during wwii to protect shipping from german subs.

]]> By: Editor B http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-392871 Editor B Thu, 03 Sep 2009 02:23:57 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-392871 Garv: The levee system does have those problems with regard to the river. However, after Katrina, it was not these levees that caused a problem. Rather it was the high water in Lake Pontchartrain backing up into outfall canals designed to drain rainwater out of low-lying areas. The walls on these drainage canals failed because of a design flaw which the Corps had discovered in the 1980s, I believe. Anyway, more directly to your last question, if these drainage canals had not been built I suspect these low-lying areas would never have been settled, and they wouldn't have flooded either, but that's my guess. In other words, it really was very muchly a manmade disaster. It must be admitted that the Corps isn't the only player to blame, but they are the ones that matter at this stage. Garv: The levee system does have those problems with regard to the river. However, after Katrina, it was not these levees that caused a problem. Rather it was the high water in Lake Pontchartrain backing up into outfall canals designed to drain rainwater out of low-lying areas. The walls on these drainage canals failed because of a design flaw which the Corps had discovered in the 1980s, I believe. Anyway, more directly to your last question, if these drainage canals had not been built I suspect these low-lying areas would never have been settled, and they wouldn’t have flooded either, but that’s my guess. In other words, it really was very muchly a manmade disaster. It must be admitted that the Corps isn’t the only player to blame, but they are the ones that matter at this stage.

]]> By: Garvey http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-392813 Garvey Thu, 03 Sep 2009 01:17:04 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-392813 Ok, I know you'll think I'm asking this to be a jerk, but I guarantee I am not. A long time ago, the powers-that-be (/Army Corps) decided that they would turn the Mississippi into a quick chute and keep it from moving its banks as rivers are wont to do. Realizing that this would then create flooding problems, esp. for a city below sea level, levees and seawalls and so forth had to be built (problem exacerbated by loss of wetlands, which they didn't know at the time, way back when?). Is this correct so far? Anyway, when an actual natural disaster came and proved this levee system insufficient, why does this cease to be a natural disaster at all and is solely a Corps disaster? Does the storm itself bear no culpability whatsoever? If the levees had never been built, would the flooding been worse, better, or the same? Again, I'm not being rhetorical, just trying to understand the perspective of "this is PURELY a man-made disaster." Want to get where you're coming from. Ok, I know you’ll think I’m asking this to be a jerk, but I guarantee I am not.

A long time ago, the powers-that-be (/Army Corps) decided that they would turn the Mississippi into a quick chute and keep it from moving its banks as rivers are wont to do. Realizing that this would then create flooding problems, esp. for a city below sea level, levees and seawalls and so forth had to be built (problem exacerbated by loss of wetlands, which they didn’t know at the time, way back when?).

Is this correct so far?

Anyway, when an actual natural disaster came and proved this levee system insufficient, why does this cease to be a natural disaster at all and is solely a Corps disaster? Does the storm itself bear no culpability whatsoever?

If the levees had never been built, would the flooding been worse, better, or the same?

Again, I’m not being rhetorical, just trying to understand the perspective of “this is PURELY a man-made disaster.” Want to get where you’re coming from.

]]> By: Jack Schick http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-392551 Jack Schick Tue, 01 Sep 2009 17:59:44 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-392551 Heya, There is a whole lotta stuff for you to read, many links, much info at this website, here's a sample: (Quoting website): Another conservative Republican may have found what caused the New Orleans flooding a few hours AFTER Katrina passed. Investigative journalist Hal Turner reported that a US Army Corps of Engineers diver found explosive residue on concrete from a collapsed levee. The diver sent a sample to a Army lab where it was identified as a Navy explosive used for underwater blasting. FEMA told the diver to mind his own business. http://www.halturnershow.com/DiversFindExplosive ResidueOnRupturedLevy.html Seems there are good witnesses to corroborate the demolition at the 17th. Street Canal and the Industrial Canal. On this Corps map note the 17th. Street Canal and the Industrial Canal: .......(maps and photos and more)..... (I didn't want to slam your blog with all this juicy stuff, so please go see it if you have the energy to face the EVIL. Most folks practice avoidance from painful things. Link: http://www.rense.com/general67/911pass.htm There's a lot of 9/11 links there, roll on down if not interested. I hope you're Clear on the complete falsehood of our Official Story on 9/11. Heya,
There is a whole lotta stuff for you to read, many links,
much info at this website,
here’s a sample:
(Quoting website):
Another conservative Republican may have found what caused the New Orleans flooding a few hours AFTER Katrina passed. Investigative journalist Hal Turner reported that a US Army Corps of Engineers diver found explosive residue on concrete from a collapsed levee. The diver sent a sample to a Army lab where it was identified as a Navy explosive used for underwater blasting. FEMA told the diver to mind his own business.

http://www.halturnershow.com/DiversFindExplosive
ResidueOnRupturedLevy.html

Seems there are good witnesses to corroborate the demolition at the 17th. Street Canal and the Industrial Canal. On this Corps map note the 17th. Street Canal and the Industrial Canal:
…….(maps and photos and more)…..
(I didn’t want to slam your blog with all this juicy stuff, so please go see it
if you have the energy to face the EVIL. Most folks practice avoidance from
painful things.
Link: http://www.rense.com/general67/911pass.htm
There’s a lot of 9/11 links there, roll on down if not interested.
I hope you’re Clear on the complete falsehood of our Official Story on 9/11.

]]> By: Jack Schick http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-392549 Jack Schick Tue, 01 Sep 2009 17:33:03 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-392549 Levees Blown Say Eyewitnesses - Media Ignores Them Eye Witnesses Living Near 17th St. Levee Say Loud Explosion Heard Just Prior To Raging Waters Flooding The 9th Ward By Greg Szymanski 1-9-6 -----------http://www.rense.com/general69/blown.htm Levees Blown
Say Eyewitnesses –
Media Ignores Them

Eye Witnesses Living Near 17th St. Levee
Say Loud Explosion Heard Just Prior
To Raging Waters Flooding The 9th Ward

By Greg Szymanski
1-9-6
———–http://www.rense.com/general69/blown.htm

]]> By: Editor B http://b.rox.com/2009/08/29/four-years-post-katrina/comment-page-1/#comment-392376 Editor B Tue, 01 Sep 2009 01:35:57 +0000 http://b.rox.com/?p=3556#comment-392376 Rick: Everything I've been able to read suggests the London Avenue Canal was *not* overtopped. That's what they thought at first, but later the verdict was changed. Rick: Everything I’ve been able to read suggests the London Avenue Canal was *not* overtopped. That’s what they thought at first, but later the verdict was changed.

]]>