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	<title>Comments on: Why I Don&#8217;t Call Myself An Agnostic</title>
	<atom:link href="http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/</link>
	<description>Life in the Flood Zone</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-184</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-184</guid>
		<description>well, then, let us furiously agree in the grand manner of the Internets!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, then, let us furiously agree in the grand manner of the Internets!</p>
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		<title>By: Austin</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-182</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-182</guid>
		<description>I'm an atheist and agnostic with respect to all gods. I'm weak atheist as a general principle and with respect to ill and vaguely defined gods (whether part of monotheistic or polytheistic systems); a strong atheist with respect to many others. I'm an agnostic when it comes to all god-claims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m an atheist and agnostic with respect to all gods. I&#8217;m weak atheist as a general principle and with respect to ill and vaguely defined gods (whether part of monotheistic or polytheistic systems); a strong atheist with respect to many others. I&#8217;m an agnostic when it comes to all god-claims.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-181</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-181</guid>
		<description>Fair enough, Austin. I suppose that makes me an Apollonian and Dionysian atheist, but a monotheistic agnostic. ;) et tu?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, Austin. I suppose that makes me an Apollonian and Dionysian atheist, but a monotheistic agnostic. <img src='http://b.rox.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> et tu?</p>
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		<title>By: Agnosticism/Atheism</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Agnosticism/Atheism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-178</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Agnosticism vs. Atheism&lt;/strong&gt;
Many, many atheists have probably had the experience where someone has expressed surprise at learning that the person was an atheist. There seems to be a common attitude that anyone who is nice, polite, and moral could really be an...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Agnosticism vs. Atheism</strong><br />
Many, many atheists have probably had the experience where someone has expressed surprise at learning that the person was an atheist. There seems to be a common attitude that anyone who is nice, polite, and moral could really be an&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Austin</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-177</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-177</guid>
		<description>"It‚Äôs not knowable. It‚Äôs faith."

That's the case with some, but not all, god-claims - including the god-claims we have today. Some god-claims are specific, coherent, and testable. They commonly morph, of course, when they fail the tests but that doesn't change the fact that there *are* tests (empirical, logical). If a claim fails a test, we can say "That god doesn't exist."

Ergo it is simply untrue to assert ‚ÄúThe specific denial of God‚Äôs existence requires a positive statement of belief - of faith - in the unknowable." As a general principle. It's true in some cases but not others. This means that you cannot accuse a strong atheist of practicing some sort of "faith" unless and until you learn more about what they mean by "God" when they say "God doesn't exist."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It‚Äôs not knowable. It‚Äôs faith.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the case with some, but not all, god-claims - including the god-claims we have today. Some god-claims are specific, coherent, and testable. They commonly morph, of course, when they fail the tests but that doesn&#8217;t change the fact that there *are* tests (empirical, logical). If a claim fails a test, we can say &#8220;That god doesn&#8217;t exist.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ergo it is simply untrue to assert ‚ÄúThe specific denial of God‚Äôs existence requires a positive statement of belief - of faith - in the unknowable.&#8221; As a general principle. It&#8217;s true in some cases but not others. This means that you cannot accuse a strong atheist of practicing some sort of &#8220;faith&#8221; unless and until you learn more about what they mean by &#8220;God&#8221; when they say &#8220;God doesn&#8217;t exist.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-175</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-175</guid>
		<description>"They also aren‚Äôt testable and, as such, aren‚Äôt especially meaningful statements about the empirical, external world. There‚Äôs not particular reason to take them seriously or give them any serious consideration."

Right, that's what I've been saying. It's not knowable. It's faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They also aren‚Äôt testable and, as such, aren‚Äôt especially meaningful statements about the empirical, external world. There‚Äôs not particular reason to take them seriously or give them any serious consideration.&#8221;</p>
<p>Right, that&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve been saying. It&#8217;s not knowable. It&#8217;s faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Austin</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2004 04:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-172</guid>
		<description>"Actual assertions of knowledge concerning this class of phenomena by definition cannot derive from the phenomena, and ergo, are postulation, revelation, or opinion."

They also aren't testable and, as such, aren't especially meaningful statements about the empirical, external world. There's not particular reason to take them seriously or give them any serious consideration.

"Am I clarifying my own opinion?"

Not really, no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Actual assertions of knowledge concerning this class of phenomena by definition cannot derive from the phenomena, and ergo, are postulation, revelation, or opinion.&#8221;</p>
<p>They also aren&#8217;t testable and, as such, aren&#8217;t especially meaningful statements about the empirical, external world. There&#8217;s not particular reason to take them seriously or give them any serious consideration.</p>
<p>&#8220;Am I clarifying my own opinion?&#8221;</p>
<p>Not really, no.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-171</guid>
		<description>OK, I follow. An example is saying "there is no such god as Apollo." I concur that this denial is not dependent upon faith but could instead be (probably) demonstrated by the tools of reason.

However, the Monotheistic Idea upon which a great deal of postclassical religious philosophy rests is much more subtle than the conception of gods as personified superpowerful beings. It's roots are present even in Classical works exploring polytheistic ideas of deity, notably Plato (who might very well have a vested interest in pushing the monotheistic idea, but whatever).

The underlying principle in this interpretation is that there is (or is not) something that exceeds the experiential, observable range of the universe. The universe is infinite, and whatever is leftover, then is the infinite. That, in a nutshell, is God. Or not-God, if you choose to accept the boundaries of the finite. By reason, then, we can see that stating positive knowledge of the state of existence or non existence of the infinite and non-experiential (therefore, unobservable) must be faith, as it can't be based on reason or observation. Actual assertions of knowledge concerning this class of phenomena by definition cannot derive from the phenomena, and ergo, are postulation, revelation, or opinion.

Am I clarifying my own opinion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I follow. An example is saying &#8220;there is no such god as Apollo.&#8221; I concur that this denial is not dependent upon faith but could instead be (probably) demonstrated by the tools of reason.</p>
<p>However, the Monotheistic Idea upon which a great deal of postclassical religious philosophy rests is much more subtle than the conception of gods as personified superpowerful beings. It&#8217;s roots are present even in Classical works exploring polytheistic ideas of deity, notably Plato (who might very well have a vested interest in pushing the monotheistic idea, but whatever).</p>
<p>The underlying principle in this interpretation is that there is (or is not) something that exceeds the experiential, observable range of the universe. The universe is infinite, and whatever is leftover, then is the infinite. That, in a nutshell, is God. Or not-God, if you choose to accept the boundaries of the finite. By reason, then, we can see that stating positive knowledge of the state of existence or non existence of the infinite and non-experiential (therefore, unobservable) must be faith, as it can&#8217;t be based on reason or observation. Actual assertions of knowledge concerning this class of phenomena by definition cannot derive from the phenomena, and ergo, are postulation, revelation, or opinion.</p>
<p>Am I clarifying my own opinion?</p>
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		<title>By: Austin</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-166</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-166</guid>
		<description>"Since religions practice is based upon theology, the religious idea (including God-oriented and non-God oriented religion) can be classed as theism."

There are many different attempts to define "religion" in the academic literature (and some attempts to argue that there is no such thing). Just about all can be classified either as substantive or as functional definitions. What you suggest here is a type of substantive definition, but not even all substantive definitions of religion claim that religion is defined by being based upon theology.

To put it simply, it isn't really accurate to reduce the complex cultural phenomenon of religion to a single attribute like "theology." Religion can exist with or without gods, with or without theology. Because of this one can have an atheistic religion - it's not common, but it does happen.

"The specific denial of God‚Äôs existence requires a positive statement of belief - of faith - in the unknowable. It‚Äôs a negative faith, but still."

That depends upon how "God" is defined. If the term is defined in a sufficiently coherent way, it is (theoretically) possible to prove or disprove it and, hence a positive affirmation or denial of existence need not be a statement of faith. If, for example, "God" is defined with two contradictory attributes, then saying "This 'God' does not exist" is no more a statement of faith then saying "This 'married bachelor' does not exist."

This does not mean that no positive denials of gods are statements of faith, but it does mean that at least some of them aren't. It isn't right to make a blanket characterization of them all as being faith-based. In order to know whether such a characterization is ever correct, one has to ask the person making the statement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Since religions practice is based upon theology, the religious idea (including God-oriented and non-God oriented religion) can be classed as theism.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are many different attempts to define &#8220;religion&#8221; in the academic literature (and some attempts to argue that there is no such thing). Just about all can be classified either as substantive or as functional definitions. What you suggest here is a type of substantive definition, but not even all substantive definitions of religion claim that religion is defined by being based upon theology.</p>
<p>To put it simply, it isn&#8217;t really accurate to reduce the complex cultural phenomenon of religion to a single attribute like &#8220;theology.&#8221; Religion can exist with or without gods, with or without theology. Because of this one can have an atheistic religion - it&#8217;s not common, but it does happen.</p>
<p>&#8220;The specific denial of God‚Äôs existence requires a positive statement of belief - of faith - in the unknowable. It‚Äôs a negative faith, but still.&#8221;</p>
<p>That depends upon how &#8220;God&#8221; is defined. If the term is defined in a sufficiently coherent way, it is (theoretically) possible to prove or disprove it and, hence a positive affirmation or denial of existence need not be a statement of faith. If, for example, &#8220;God&#8221; is defined with two contradictory attributes, then saying &#8220;This &#8216;God&#8217; does not exist&#8221; is no more a statement of faith then saying &#8220;This &#8216;married bachelor&#8217; does not exist.&#8221;</p>
<p>This does not mean that no positive denials of gods are statements of faith, but it does mean that at least some of them aren&#8217;t. It isn&#8217;t right to make a blanket characterization of them all as being faith-based. In order to know whether such a characterization is ever correct, one has to ask the person making the statement.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://b.rox.com/2004/10/04/agnostic/comment-page-1/#comment-165</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Oct 2004 03:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://b.rox.com/archives/2004/10/04/agnostic/#comment-165</guid>
		<description>Yes! The Sims = Religion!

insofar as video games are repetitive motion meditation tools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes! The Sims = Religion!</p>
<p>insofar as video games are repetitive motion meditation tools.</p>
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